I've just had an idea for a variation of DoND. The idea's based on the knowledge that the banker's proveout offers aren't always realistic.

When an offer is made, instead of accepting or declining an offer, a player can also choose to pick an envelope, containing either 'Deal' or 'No Deal'.

The game continues as normal, the player not knowing the contents of the envelope just picked until after the game.

Once the game ends, the player can then open the envelope, to see if s/he dealt earlier, or no dealt, and wins what happened afterwards.

E.g. A player was offered £21,000 at 5-box, and chose an envelope. After playing on all the way, the player has £250,000 in the box. S/he could win one of the two amounts after opening the envelope.

Before this happens, the banker may call and make an offer between the two amounts, for example £100,000, the player having one more choice to make.

The name of choosing the envelopes is called Pivoting, and a player can Pivot at any time in the game, but only once, as it would become too complicated to track.

What do you think?

Ooooh... That seems good, but I'm trying to see what sort of situation someone would decide the envelope...

Sounds interesting, but would it work?

Interesting concept, and one that I'd like to see at least given a trial on the forum. I may well do it myself, though I won't be able to until at least tomorrow and probably Friday.

I will host or play it!

I hope so!

Here's an example of a 5-box board:

1p
£50
50k
75k
100k

(this wasn't inspired by today's game, just a coincidence)

The offer for this board is £25,000. To keep things simple to begin with, we'll just assume that pivoting means that just two amounts are in play: the pivoted offer, and randomly one of the remaining amounts in play.

The banker makes a call, based on the board:

1p - 25k (offer 7k)
£50 - 25k (offer 8k)
25k - 50k (offer 35k)
25k - 75k (offer 45k)
25k - 100k (offer 55k)

The first thing to note, is that dealing all offers here, gives average winnings of £30,000, higher than the original offer, and more can be won by no dealing any of them. The second, is that there is still risk involved (e.g. dropping from £25,000 to £7,000), and that the risk is different from the usual board.

Pivoting requires some care, for example pivoting a low offer means you'll receive a lower final offer, whereas pivoting a high offer entails some risk, when dealing could be wiser.

Pivoting should be seen as a choice between dealing and no dealing, and a good understanding of how it works can yield a lot more from the board. May require a spreadsheet at first to understand!



I'd love to see it... unless the banker makes low offers all game.

Ooh, this sounds quite good. They could have this as like a one-off week... That'd be an interesting episode line-up.

I've been thinking about this, and I thought of a situation of which I would probably pivot.

£1
£5
£250
£35,000
£100,000

In a situation like this, I'm looking for an offer higher expected than a decent blue/£35k situation had I no-dealt the offer. So to put it into a situation where Id pivot, the offer would be borderline. So... I'd probably say...

Banker's offer:

£11,500

At which I'd pivot, because then I have a 50% chance of taking that home, and a 20% chance of taking home £35,000 or more/an offer that would be over £20,000/over £40,000 leaving a safety net if I was to have £250 in my box for example, and then with a £250/£11,500 in perspective, I'd guarantee myself a £4,000-ish consolation, which would be fantastic when I have a 40% chance of a £20,000 cop-out or even £35,000 or £100,000. I'd see a pivoting board as a board of offers when it came to the point of opening the envelope, so that'd probably be this...

£3,500
£3,500
£4,000
£20,000
£35-40,000

Which is quite a decent board, of which the average is £13,700; evidently above that offer I've received. Then again, I wouldn't take the £20,000 offer, and I don't know about the others. This twist gives soooo many different ways and routes. And "proveout" would be very interesting, where you still want to do well with the boxes, but then again having a higher offer of which you could've had as a lower board value to keep with a value higher than that at Envelope-time.

I love this idea!!!

The "board of offers" is a great way of thinking of the potential strategy in the game, Aaron. The banker's strategy is also different, relying less on dealable offers as pivotal ones, knowing that he can offer less on boards such as 1p and £250,000, because players are more likely to pivot than no deal. E.g. offer of £35,000 here leads to...

1p - 35k (offer 10k)
35k - 250k (offer 110k)

... an average of £60,000, slightly higher than usual, but would be very entertaining to watch.

So, the balance of power isn't necessarily shifted one way or the other, but is a choice for both parties, and the dynamics of the game also change.

I'm also thinking that any offer that is pivotable, should also be an offer in the usual game. The banker's main goal is to get player's out of the chair while making the most savings possible, and because pivoting is what a player would do between deals and no deals, that would be the perfect pressure offer to make.


I'm glad you really like it!

This sounds good but confuses me to death!!

Whenever I hear or read the word "pivot", I can't stop thinking of Ross off Friends shouting it to Chandler and Rachel when they were trying to lift a new sofa up a staircase!!

If anyone wants a game, here is where to click.

Good game KP, Daniel, I enjoyed reading the action and your thoughts during the game. The Banker's Gamble's a nice surprise, too!

I've noticed that the action of pivoting interrupts the flow of the game, because it becomes both a proveout and in-game action at the same time. What could be better, after first pivoting, is that the game continues as normal, where the banker can continue making offers, adding the potential for a second pivot.

E.g. at 11-box, the player pivots £10,000, and with this board:

£1
£250
£5,000
£15,000
£100,000

... is offered £16,000. If the second pivot is accepted, the board is:

£10,000 - £16,000

... and the proveout begins. Once the box is opened, the banker makes an offer for the two remaining amounts.

If the offer's declined, play continues as usual. If the player goes all the way and opens the box, the banker can again make an offer with the pivoted amount and box contents.

The key change to this version, is that the decisions in the game continue, and that the banker has more opportunities to change the game, which could save him money. And yes, I think pivots should be broken if the banker wants to make a later offer identical to the pivoted one.

E.g. the player pivots at 8-box for £10,000, and with this board:

10p
£1
£50
£35,000
£50,000

... is offered £10,000, then the pivot is 10k - 10k, when saying deal for 10k would mean the same thing.

Whether this idea works, when there is confusion on how to play it, only time will tell. I hope it adds an extra element to the game, and would love to see more games.

Forgot to check this!

Great idea, why didn't I think of that?

Thank you, killersbee. I have loads of these kind of ideas, this one came into my head after thinking of different strategies. Without any effort, there it was, fully formed.

I'm sure you can think of a great idea for DoND, if you focus you mind and let it happen.

I love it! Could I have a game?

Game 2 with NoelsFan is here.